I've been obsessing
about Kaelyssa's new tier ever since the good ol' days of "Hail
Hydra", and even though we lost our Gains Focus-powered Shoryuken I think
it still shows a lot of potential, especially since I got into this game to
play with steam/soul powered/geothermal stompy robots. It asks a very
interesting question- if we're left with basically nothing but our 'Jacks, but
they are allowed to live to their full potential, can we make a winning list?
Image credit for the above goes to: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?199444-New-Kaelyssa-Theme-Force-in-the-NQ&p=2643945&viewfull=1#post2643945
The list that I've
been trying out was one that was suggested by TacCom on the Retribution forums:
Force Wall, Tier 4
Kaelyssa
-Phoenix
-Manticore
-Manticore
-Griffon
-Griffon
Arcantrik Force
Generator
House Shyeel
Artificer
House Shyeel Battle
Mages
House Shyeel Battle
Mages
5 Free Arcanists
Tier 4 gets us the
following bonuses:
- Arcanists gain Focus Multiplier (can allocate additional focus to 'jacks that already have focus)
- The FA of House Shyeel units and solos increases by 2
- During the first round the opponents models can't run or charge
- For every myrmidon taken we get a free Arcanist ignoring FA restrictions
The Reasons:
The Myrm on Fire
Phoenix- I love our
bird of fire and he loves this list. With the arc node I can arc up to two
Rifts per turn to slow the enemy advance, and some combination of Combustion
and easily getting fully tooled up without Kaelyssa's interference can let him
go to town on anything that comes into his considerable threat range.
Manticores- This
list is all about denying movement options to the enemy, and two covering fire
templates say just that to enemy infantry. They've proven so effective so far
that I'm debating making some cuts for some more, plus they can punch like
nobody else in Ret save the Hyperion when push comes to shove.
Halbs are their heroes
Griffons- Mostly
here to up the Arcanist count, they also serve as great early objective
grabbers and fire and forget missiles to tie the enemy up.
Big and Beautiful
AFG- Primarily here
to throw out rough terrain templates, it can also be used to solve the
omnipresent accuracy issue that this list has, as pretty much everything is MAT
or RAT 6 or less.
Battle Mages- one
unit is required for the tier, but they have proven useful so far as an easy
way to shove enemy units out of zones or off of objectives. Plus they can
always turn on man mode with their P+S 11 Beat Back fists if necessary.
Artificer- taken
purely for tier benefits, but he also helps protect either Arcanists or
Kaelyssa from ranged and blast damage and can contest a zone easily with armor
17 and Polarity Field.
aka Focusgiver Jack Handlers
Arcanists- most of the reason that you're playing the tier, these guys help our myrmidons act like beasts. With careful placement we can hand out up to 5 focus every turn, making the myrmidons very caster independent and allowing them to take on a larger burden in this list.
The Plan:
This particular
build is built to play for scenario at all costs. First turn we run into
position while the opponent ambles up, second turn and onwards lay out up to
three 4" rough terrain templates a turn (AFG plus a potential two Rifts
arced by Kaelyssa) plus two 3" covering fire templates to slow the enemy
advance. Ideally Kaelyssa gets into dominating position early and from that
point on it's all about using the Battle Mages to push enemy models out of the
zone or drag them in piece meal to be eaten by the Phoenix and Manticores. The
Griffons are mostly there to be early objective grabbers and fire and forget
missiles to slow down the enemy advance.
I've tried this list
out once so far and it definitely did its job correctly against a Convergence
army, but a lot of that had to do with my opponent's unfamiliarity with the
list and slow realization that I was going up quickly for the scenario win. One
thing that game did show me was that this list can deal with armor by either
slamming a heavy plus a Griffon into it or just simply ignoring it and using
the Battle Mages plus Kaelyssa's feat to keep them from causing too much
trouble.
The Problem:
I'm just not sure
that this list has enough… stuff to capably handle enemy lists. Heavies aren't
much of a problem, nor are multiwound or shield wall infantry, but this list
can have problems facing off against armies with accurate long range guns, fast
models or that possess wide access to pathfinder.
More than this is
the question of which forces does this list want to fight. I think it might be
a good answer in some situations for Skorne, Trolls and Menoth as they tend to
rely on large, relatively slow pieces, but at the least the first two can have
fairly good access to Pathfinder if they want it. It might also have a good
match up vs Khador as Pathfinder is generally limited to Saxon Orrick, and
Black Dragons hate covering fire and Battle Mage pulls. But then again Butcher
3 would probably eat this list for lunch. Legion and Circle will dance around
this list and laugh at the RAT 5 MAT 6 jacks, Cygnar will blast the Arcanists
to pieces if I'm not careful and Cryx will eat the 'jacks for lunch.
In the end I think
this list is going to do best in a three list pairing when focused on taking
out a couple of common builds as it doesn't have the wide variety of effects to
be considered a Take All Comers list, but I'll keep on trying it to see how it
pans out.
Next time I'll show
off my first couple of trials with the list. Until next time, shank a round ear
for me!
Out of all the Force Wall lists I've seen so far, I think I like this one the best. You have all the denial tools to slow the opponent down - double Covering Fire, triple Rift templates - and still keep a good amount of hitting power and number of attacks on the table. Despite Ret 'jacks not being the toughest, that's still a lot of metal to chew through too.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Steamrolling, what do you pair this list up with? It's sort of an oddball. Who covers its weaknesses, or forces opponents to make a hard choice against it?
I'm looking forward to reading the reports!
Yeah, that's the part that I'm not really sure about. Right now I'm thinking some kind of Issyria list as it can be built to handle Circle, Legion, Cryx and Cygnar. But as I mentioned above, I think that it's probably best in a three list format.
ReplyDeleteAs a guy who loves jam lists, I think you need more Griffons. Those things are amazing in the way they take up board space much like the Cyclops Brutes do in your Makeda3 list. They are significantly faster with the fleet ability and you can get 14" runs for essentially 2 or 3 caster focus. Mat 8, POW 13 Weapon Master swings should deter most infantry going past you and Arm 18, 26 hp, 4 point guys seem pretty amazing at absorbing attention. They take a lot of effort to remove and one of the most important parts of the jam is screwing with the other guy's order of operations. And then jamming them behind their own screen/units/etc.
ReplyDeleteI might try dropping the Pheonix for 2 more Griffons and a Magister Solo. Two reasons:
1)I'm not convinced the arc node is necessary. Casting Rifts does give you further board control but do you really need 18" wide of board control that might be easily bypassed with pathfinder? Plus that is 6 focus you aren't spreading to your jacks and letting the arcanists shine or using for safety. That safety is key, I've learned that the first thing other players do when they get hit by a hard scenario is to scramble for an assassination. You're putting them in a tight corner quickly and they'll take low percentage plays because they feel desperate. Every once in a while this will bite you which will hurt tournament placements (if that is what you are after).
2) Pheonix kills heavies. But the Manticore's should be able to do enough heavy lifting to make up the loss in that department, especially since the battle mages should be doing a pretty good job of controlling heavies. It's a very tough placement game for the other guy. Too close and you pull him in and murder him. Just on the edge, you push him back and his heavy is worthless. It's one more thing he needs to consider.
I think this modified list will have game against Cygnar and Legion. They aren't going to like having their guns jammed up and the Pow 10s won't do much to the Griffons. If they have heavier elements taking care of the Griffons, they aren't getting into the zone. Circle beasts are also not going to be fond of catching a Mat 8, Pow 13 or 15 charge to the face. Use the long range Griffon charge (13") to knock out a stone if you can.
I think this list has a lot of upswing and a much broader application. At least in my experience with Circle jam lists.
@DaveG: Thanks for the comments! Your list ideas definitely do deal with my fear that this list will literally get walked all over by pathfinder heavy lists and also helps it deal with the Circle and Legion matches. I'd actually considered a version similar to what you suggest but using double Phoenix in place of the Manticores, which in hind sight doesn't get me very far.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I have two reservations about going Griffon heavy with this list:
First, I feel like the list needs an arc node to function at peak efficiency. Even a single Rift template can help out immensely when trying to slow the opposing list down, and it also provides some handy anti-infantry which the list needs help with anyway. A secondary benefit of having the arc node is that it's easier to get both utility and beating power from the Phoenix than from a Manticore, as it can still arc out Rift templates and apply face beatings where as the Manticore has to give up melee to put out the covering fire template.
Second, and something that I've been struggling with, is that I don't want to tread on the toes of Vyros2 Griffon Spam. This is mostly because I see the power in this list coming from being able to use multiple heavies at peak efficiency, as it will never catch up to the Synergy list in terms of getting the most bang for the buck out of our lights. Griffons definitely still have a place in the list as jam or missiles, but I definitely still want the balance of my jack points going towards heavies.
Neither of these are deal breakers for me, but they are things that I'm trying to keep in the back of my mind. I'll probably try out a variation of the list consisting of triple Manticore, double HSBM, Artificer, five Griffons and 8 free Arcanists, going for less of the rough terrain skew and more for covering fire spam/Griffon jam. I'd like to get the AFG back in there for some template coverage that doesn't require focus, but getting the points is difficult.
I'm intrigued by the moar Griffons idea (especially since I'll eventually pick up all those Griffons for eVyros, and it would be cool to have another list for them). I think they'll be more of a jam than the Brutes in my current Makeda 3 build (they're faster, for one thing). 4-5 Griffons seems like a very workable number that can jam in 2 waves if needed, and the second wave can probably get full Focus from the Arcanists.
ReplyDeleteKaelyssa can get a lot out of a Phoenix, though. Rift, Backlash, and Arcantrik Bolt are all worth channeling. At least one node in the list also gives Kaelyssa some extra assassination options too. A lot of games end with an Arcantrik Bolt once Kae's gun runs out of shots. Beyond the Arc Node, the Phoenix can do a lot of work with Combustion and Reach.
I'm with Max on the heavies though. They're where most of the list's punch needs to come from, even if there is a strong scenario game. Many opponents will be able to contest the scenario on turns 2-3, and second line heavies are the best things Force Wall has to remove them again, and keep up the scoring momentum.