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| Searching for the perfect match (image from the PP Galery) |
Last week, I talked a bit about different modules I'm thinking of taking in my Makeda 3 list HERE. A big part of working with those modules, though, is making sure my other list can make up for any blind spots I've left. This time around, I'll talk about a few 'casters and lists I'm thinking of pairing with Makeda 3 at tournaments to cover her weaker points.
To start with, here are the matchups I'm most worried about with Makeda 3:
Deneghra 1 and Deneghra 2: These two both end up being pretty rough on the Brute Squad list. For one thing, they can stall the list on a critical turn. The Brute Squad needs a turn of explosive damage output to really compete against Cryx infantry, and both Deneghra's have Feats that can shut that down on the turn it needs to happen. On top of that, they have Def and Arm debuffs, which make it very risky to play Makeda 3 as far forward as she wants to be.
Butcher 3: Butcher 3 is a monster assassination 'caster, and Makeda 3 really wants to be in his massive effective threat range. The matchup is actually a good one for Makeda 3 if you have Orin Midwinter in your list. Without spellcasting, Butcher isn't nearly as much of a threat, and his army can struggle without the usual Khador level of support. If you don't have Orin though, Butcher's longer threat range and Silence of Death keep Makeda from contributing to the fight. I don't think this match is unplayable for Makeda 3, but I'd much rather play it with my other list if she doesn't have Midwinter.
The Harbinger: She has a lot of ways to stop models in her army from being Destroyed by enemy attacks (which Makeda wants to do for a couple reasons), she has the Covenant a lot of the time to stop spellcasting, she can keep Makeda from giving her unit orders with Rebuke, and she debuffs accuracy just by hanging around. Not cool. Usually, it's good to have a gun or two in a list to keep her honest (because her large base and the fact that she damages herself constantly make her very vulnerable to shooting), but the Brute Squad doesn't have any.
Saeryn: Saeryn is the probably the most playable of the problem matchups, but she's still pretty bad news for the Brute Squad. Since Makeda will be blocking charge lanes with a few tough models rather than a lot of little models, it's not too difficult for a skilled Saeryn player to charge past the front line on her Feat turn, and have essentially two rounds of messing up the heavies. She also has Breath Stealer, and easy access to Grievous Wounds, which makes Makeda significantly more vulnerable near the front lines than she normally is.
EDIT: Krueger 2: I don't have a lot of experience against Krueger 2 yet, but he's very nasty, and on paper he looks like a strong drop against Makeda 3. With TK and Force Bolt on Driuds, he can turn the Brutes around, and pull them out of position, where it's easy for Circle heavies to kill them and retreat thanks to Sprint. His Feat is also very strong against Makeda 3. It forces you to commit heavily to zones, or be pushed out of them. Even if you do, it gives the Circle heavies even more of a chance to charge in, remove a Brute or a heavy, and Sprint away without facing retaliation. I have a few thoughts on how I'd play the matchup in the comments below, but it would be difficult.
Those are the matchups I really don't like, although my meta doesn't expose me to all 'casters equally. I think most of the other 'casters are somewhere between playable with Makeda 3 and weak against her. There are definitely a few (mostly hardcore control 'casters like eKrueger and Rahn) that I'd rather handle with a different list, but I think even they are playable with enough discipline and forethought.
Given those concerns, I'm mainly looking for a 'caster who's strong agaisnt control, who can tangle with Cryx, has tools to keep Harby honest (while not falling over to other Menoth matches), and who can threaten the Butcher while staying relatively safe themselves. Here's mainly who I'm looking at:
Lord Tyrant Hexeris - He's about offensive spellcasting and controlling the game by sniping out options. With his Feat, he can do massive damage to a lot of the more popular infantry on the scene right now, and with a solid selection of models, he can threaten heavy armor as well. I'm hoping to build on those strengths with this list.
Lord Tyrant Hexeris (*6pts) - Tier 1 Kingdom of Shadow
*Mammoth (20pts)
*Titan Gladiator (8pts)
*Cyclops Raider (5pts)
*Basilisk Krea (4pts)
*Razor Worm (4pts)
*Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
*Praetorian Swordsmen Officer and Standard Bearer (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Extoller Soulward (2pts)
This list is pretty flexible. It has a reasonable screen in the Swordsmen, and a strong finisher in the Mammoth. It also has a good combined arms presence. It has a good selection of firepower and offensive magic to keep the Deneghra's and Harbinger honest, and I'd play it against most other Circle, Legion, and Cryx lists because the Mammoth package is pretty strong against them, and is boosted further by Hexy's spells and Feat.
Void Seer Mordikaar - He's all around pretty strong. He has a very solid attrition game with Revive, Hollow, and his Feat. He can also play a solid scenario game between Hollow and Revive, although he's fragile enough that he often won't want to Dominate. My list for him is pretty boilerplate.
Void Seer Mordikaar (*5pts)
*Tiberion (11pts)
*Despoiler (10pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
*Tyrant Vorkesh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Bloodrunners (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Tyrant Commander and Standard Bearer (3pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
This list is mainly an attrition list, but has a lot of ways to deny control lists their tricks. Banishing Ward and Vorkesh make it solid against spell-based control, and Revive means that a lot of the debuff-related means of freezing the list out of zones will be denied even if they're from a Feat. I'm not a hundred percent sold on Despoiler in this list, even though it's a super cool beast that helps out with hitting power, RFP, and spawns new threats. I might switch it out for Incendiarii and a Basilisk of some flavor. UPDATE: This list is strong against all the bad matchups I listed, although in the case of Circle, it seems weak against Morvahna 2 and Bradigus due to their plentiful RFP. I have not played the matchup yet though.
Supreme Aptimus Zaal - He's one of Skorne's top Warlocks because he has an answer for nearly any situation. He's a great assassination Warlock thanks to Last Stand, his Feat, and the Kovass popping up when an Ancestral Guardian dies, but he also plays attrition and clears zones pretty well. My current Zaal list, stolen shamelessly from Muffinman, is:
Supreme Aptimus Zaal (*5pts)
*Kovass (-)
*Archidon (7pts)
*Cyclops Raider (5pts)
*Basilisk Krea (4pts)
*Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Tyrant Commander and Standard Bearer (3pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoller Soulward (2pts)
I'm considering a few changes with this list, which kind of go in opposite directions. The first is going full-on Tier list with it, and playing it with 3 units of Immortals. Zaal's tier is pretty good, and the benefits usually outweigh the limitations. This option would match up well against Harbinger, who often runs a ton of Incorporeal Paladins. The other option is the Nihilators + Swamp Shamblers list that's been going around lately. Overall, I'm very happy with this list, although I may go for something more specialized.
Archdomina Makeda - I like pMakeda a lot, and as a combined Beast/Infantry 'caster, she will always bring something different from what Makeda 3 has. Right now, I'm liking Watts' Mammoth build with her, though I may switch some things around to cut a little support, which makes up a fair amount of the list.
Archdomina Makeda (*5pts)
*Mammoth (20pts)
*Cyclops Raider (5pts)
*Basilisk Krea (4pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Extoller Soulward (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)
Feralgeist (1pt)
I'm on the fence as to whether I want to run this exact list, or switch some of the support elements from Mammoth support to infantry support, and/or run the new Keltarii instead of Nihilators. Either way, Makeda 1 makes a good partner for Makeda 3. She's flexible, but generally has a strong attrition game. The Mammoth shooting also keeps the Deneghra's, Harbinger, and plenty of other squishy 'casters on their toes. UPDATE: Even with Stormwall shortening the range, this list is strong against Krueger 2 because the Mammoth can still shoot at 9" and cannot be pushed out of zones. Krueger also only has Circle's usual tools for cracking armor, so he might struggle to kill a Defender's Warded Mammoth.
Here are a few others who might fit the bill. I don't know if I'm planning to try any of them out, but with the right list, they'd all make pretty good partners.
Dominar Rasheth - Rasheth runs a fantastic Titan brick. He's a back line 'caster all the way, which makes him significantly less vulnerable to stronger assassination games. As interesting as the out of Tier options are, Chain Gang is probably the way to run him. The point discount on Titans is too good to pass up. I don't have much experience with Rasheth, but I'd probably run something like the following:
Dominar Rasheth (*5pts) - Tier 4 Chain Gang
*Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
*Bronzeback Titan (9pts)
*Titan Sentry (8pts)
*Titan Cannoneer (8pts)
*Titan Gladiator (7pts)
*Titan Gladiator (7pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
I've actually never run a list like this, but I've heard good things. This list would be solid against almost any Hordes matchup, even with melee denying Feats like Saeryn's. The Cannoneer keeps 'casters like the Harbinger honest, and Rasheth can use Castigate and Breath of Corruption to help out against other Warmachine matchups, particularly Cryx and Menoth. This list is also a very hard Arm skew that many lists will struggle against.
Master Tormentor Morghoul - I like Morghoul 1 a lot. He's fun, gives good army support, and has a great denial Feat. I haven't played him much recently because his playstyle is a little similar to Makeda 3's. That said, I've run a combined shooty/melee list with him a couple of times that I like a lot, and that would compliment Makeda 3 in a similar way that Makeda 1 with the Mammoth does:
Master Tormentor Morghoul (*7pts)
*Mammoth (20pts)
*Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
*Titan Gladiator (8pts)
*Cyclops Raider (5pts)
*Basilisk Krea (4pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew (1pt)
Extoller Soulward (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
This list is a lot of fun. With the Mammoth, it can hang back a little, and shoot out infantry and support. It has a very decent ranged assassination against Hordes if Morghoul can zap a Warlock with Torment. It also has a very dangerous melee presence with a huge melee threat range (11.5 on the Titans and 13 on the Mammoth). The Mammoth brings its usual help against the Deneghra's and Harbinger, and Morghoul 1 is very good against Saeryn if you have the discipline to save Morghoul's Feat for the turn after Saeryn Feats (something the Mammoth package helps with). Morghoul's Feat is also a 1-turn shutdown for Butcher 3, although that turn had better be decisive against the rest of his army because he can wait it out at Arm 24 and kill the crap out of Morghoul next turn unless your positioning is very good.
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak - I still only have one game in with Xerxis 2, but he seems to be able to get a good alpha strike consistently, and run a shooting game well. Both of those things can complement Makeda 3. Here are my very sketchy thoughts for X2 right now:
Xerxis, Fury of Halaak (*5pts)
*Tiberion (11pts)
*Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
*Archidon (7pts)
*Basilisk Krea (4pts)
*Basilisk Drake (4pts)
*Basilisk Drake (4pts)
Praetorian Ferox (Leader and 4 Grunts) (11pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Mortitheurge Willbreaker (2pts)
I suspect this list is trying to do too many things at once right now, and I might end up cutting either the Ferox or another element to shore up its weaknesses. I'm also not sure whether I want to bond the Archidon or the Krea The basic plan is that Tiberion, the Bronzeback, and Xerxis make up the solid center and armor cracking. The Ferox and Drakes (with or without the Krea) will run up the flanks to cause problems. The Mortitheurge will hang out, and make sure I can force the Basilisks even if Xerxis is away, and hand out Ancillary Attacks to the Drakes. This list also has options against the likes of Harbinger and Saeryn with its shooting and long threat ranges. I'd definitely want Makeda to handle Butcher 3 with this list as my alternate, because Grievous Wounds kills Xerxis 2 horribly. I'm not as sure about this list against the Deneghra's although the Drakes will be very effective, and Xerxis can contribute a lot more when hanging back than Makeda 3 can.
So those are my thoughts for partners to Makeda 3. I'll mainly be trying out the first group, but posting that Morghoul 1 list (and chatting about it with Tom at the store this past week) makes me want to try it out as well.
Thoughts and comments are always welcome. There's a huge amount of variation in how to build Skorne, even against specific matchups, and I'm always looking for new ideas.
Stay tuned for Steamrolling with Makeda 3 Part 3: SR 2015. Thanks for reading!
Sweet. It's been confirmed in the field--at least for a newer Butcher3 player, Orin Midwinter + the level of defensive tech that Makeda brings can be tilting. The volume of guns Butcher brings is just not enough to get through Krea and 4 shield guards, and if you have Gobbers or terrain to stack with that it pretty much forces him to figure out a game without spells.
ReplyDeleteStack on top of that that BDIFP are grade-A feat targets for Molik and the BB and that Safeguard denies critical knockdown, and you have a really brutal matchup for the typical B3 build.
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The one thing I don't see up there is Circle. I think Circle is a weak spot for the Brute Squad, though as you showed (and I think is even more the case with my Extoller build) Brad isn't really a problem.
So the good: Brutes are pretty sweet for not letting Sprint trigger. Any bad nice against a forward-facing Brute will leave a Circle heavy out in the open. In general, the armor of Makeda's list is not easy for Circle to chew through and Makeda is tough to assassinate. For the Kromac builds, the Shield Guards mess with Concentrated fire. So that's all good.
However, my meta is bloated with Krueger2 players. Of the 9 tournament games I've played to date 3 have been against Krueger2, and he's a popular Skorne drop so he needs to be considered. Backwards Brutes are way easier to kill than forwards ones, and the Agonizer does nothing to stop arcing through Gallows Groves. Druids can stop Eliminator, Ground Zero, or even Fate Walker if you aren't mindful. And in a similar fashion to the Dennys, Krueger can use his feat to stifle the turn that Makeda wants to go all-out. Granted, against Circle we aren't fighting the same attritional uphill, but the combination of the push, speed debuff, and the Brute Squad's low model count means we have to be very, very careful on live scenarios. All my "simulated" games (read: me playing against myself on vassal -_-) have led to the Brick being slowly picked apart or quickly pushed out of scenario.
The thrust of this is that it has pushed me toward considering Rasheth and Makeda1 since they both cover Circle well, but for different reasons. If you have more experience or thoughts regarding Krueger, I think every Skorne player on the interwebz would like to hear it :).
As always, keep up the good work!
I can believe that eKrueger is a problem for the Brute Squad, although I haven't run into it much. We do have a couple of pretty serious Circle players, but when I've played them, it hasn't been into eKrueger. He's very solid, and I could definitely be underestimating him just because I'm comfortable sending Makeda 3 into most of the rest of Circle.
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely right about him having the tools to pull the list apart. Losing the Brutes without trading for them is rough, and a Stalker/Ghetorix can certainly kill one and sprint away easily. Driuds with Force Bolt is a problem too. I'd been thinking that positioning the army in less depth than normal would work against eKrueger.
The Brutes would probably still get pulled out of position and killed, but the rest of the list would have a better chance to counterattack because the other heavy hitters, especially Molik, would be so close behind them. I have no idea how well it would actually work though. The Feat is still a big problem, and Druids are a huge factor as well. My general strategy would be to advance the Brutes a little less than their full move turn 1, so the Titans and Molik are closer behind them, and use the Exalted Guardians out front with the Brutes to make TK's and pulls on the heavies harder. Turn 2, play aggressively to contest the zones/flags, still keeping the army in a tight formation. With good positioning, it might be possible to contest the scenario too well for the Feat to lose you the game, and still be close enough together to make it hard to pull the Brutes too far out of formation. That's pure speculation though. I suspect a really good eKrueger player will either pull the Brutes too far for retaliation anyway, or just push the screen aside, and kill Molik, who is the only model really capable of competing with Circle in terms of speed.
However, I think that the same types of list that will give the Deneghra's pause will work against eKrueger. Watt's Makeda 1 + Mammoth list will work. Rasheth is probably a good choice too, although I have no experience with the matchup. With Chain Gang, you can usually afford to either lose 2-3 Titans or 1-2 Titans plus your Gator screen, and still out-attrition Krueger. I also really like pHexeris against Circle. Arced Soulfire/Obliteration breaks stones. Psychic Vampire is hell on Druids, although Hexy has to play pretty far forward for it to catch them. I think that with the Mammoth package, he's great against eKrueger and eMorvahna. He's still untested against Bradigus, and the Mammoth may end up being replaced with other heavies depending on how easy it is for Bradigus to kill it. I'm pretty optimistic though.
At some point tonight, I'll edit the post to add eKrueger. I may have to think the Rahn matchup through more thoroughly as well, since Rahn has a pretty similar schtick (but with more slams).
Big difference with Rahn is that his Nodes can't teleport and are actually subject to Spiritual Affliction. I'll let you add your Krueger thoughts in for Mak3 specifically then I'll add my thinking on which casters cover it... I've played Krueger 3 times now, with Rasheth, Makeda2, and eHexy, so while the signal is scattered I have some non-theorymachine thoughts about what makes it tough. :)
ReplyDeleteI'd like to hear the insights you have. My limited experience against eKrueger comes mostly from when Caleb was playing Circle in 2012. I was playing pHexeris a lot then, and the combination of aggressive spellcasting to snipe out Shifting Stones and Gallows Groves and Psychic Vampire to stop the Druids from affecting the game too much proved very effective. Caleb was just learning Circle at the time though, and wound up switching to Trollbloods pretty quickly.
ReplyDeleteThe Zaal list is probably the one I'd go with. He shuts down the soul game, has infantry to help fight other infantry factions and hits like a truck to help you against Menoth and NuCryx.
ReplyDeleteThe main thing to remember with Krueger2 is that his whole game is intended to prevent you from doing anything. Stormwall shuts down shooting, Druids shut down offensive magic, and his feat and TK make melee a chore. However a lot of the time melee is one of the few ways to actually handle him. I freakin' hate Krueger2.
Your Zaal list should be able to take a hit and hit right back to smash anything that gets teleported at you. Plus the Kovaas can help contest zones and help prevent you losing on scenario.
Zaal definitely does work against Krueger 2 and can work against the Harbinger and Saeryn with a few guns in the list. I'm less sold on him as a general answer to the Deneghra's, although being able to Hex Blast your own troops in the back is nice. Hellmouth is rough though. So is Parasite/Crippling Grasp + just about any shooting. He is definitely a contender though. He's really strong, and usually a lot of fun to play, just for the Surprise! factor of the Kovass.
ReplyDeleteRight now, Mordikaar would probably be my top pick if I knew I was going up against eKrueger, but I feel a well played eMorvahna or Bradigus list overruns him, and those are the big 3 in circle.
I'm currently reconsidering Makeda 3 with Orin as a strong drop against eKrueger. I'll have to see how well Orin works against the Druids (or whether he gets picked off). In theory, he makes the matchup a lot better for Makeda 3. Not sure how I'll work around Gallows Grove channeled TK, but it's possible Molik will have to try to take them out early. I'll just have to go around begging for eKrueger matches next time I'm in Tower.
ReplyDeleteGood to see I've given you Orin on the brain. Half the reason I like him is because he gives me a human "avatar" in my army of Skorne and Skorne beasts.
ReplyDeleteDifficulty with the Groves is that they can place themselves 5" (within and not completely within), giving Krueger a ~15" threat on TK and a 17" inch threat on Gallows. Granted, he can only do this stuff so many times a turn and at least Orin shuts down Geomancy as well as any other spell.
Now, if a GG is close enough to TK one of your Brutes and the Brute *doesn't* die, then the Brute can handily chop the tree down. That and Molik's natural sidestep threat means that if you play a tight game with Molik (excepting Krueger's feat) you could potentially use him to scalpel out the Groves.
Honestly, if the Groves are dead and Orin is alive, I think Makeda has a lot of game against him, though I've only played him 3 times and with 3 different casters. The trick will be playing the mini-game of scalpelling out the Groves while not conceding scenario.
A weird alternative is to not use Null Magic and play Orin rather aggressively. He will get energy tokens from the Druids and a running, Rushed Brute + Boosted, Arced Chain Lightning has a 50-50 shot to take out a Grove that ends a turn within 18" of a Brute and 20" of Orin (roughly). Just spitballing here though as I don't think I've ever collected an Energy token.
Relevant: http://museonminis.com/krueger-stormlord-depth-guide/
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link! I'll have to check it out. There's a lot to think about with the eKrueger matchup. If his Feat were a little easier to handle, I'd be fine dealing with arced TK. The fact that he can prevent a solid counterattack makes him much nastier against Makeda 3. I will need more table time to determine the best way to approach his list, if it can really be done.
ReplyDeleteI have never collected an Energy Token either. If I'm using lightning or Stealth against eKrueger, it will be sure to come up though. Maybe boosted lighting will be the way to go :)
This coming weekend, I'm going to try Rasheth in the Trident but with third Drake and second Handlers out for max Slingers. Hope is to shore up Krueger, Saeryn, Dennies and Harby (or at least make their lives much harder than Makeda does). Could get chicken-y, but I like the Fat Man enough to trust him into some specific builds Makeda doesn't like.
ReplyDelete